BORDER REGIMENT ,CUMBERLAND,LONSDALE military badges

arnhem440
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above...examples of the dimples on a fake 4th Border and genuine 5th Border...examples of 3rd Border badges..rare 3rd Border badge with africa honour...examples of 1898-1952 patt badges encountered....examples of 1953-1959 patt badges encountered

NOTE..ALSO SEE YOUTUBE USER 2491TJ AS THERE ARE VARIOUS BORDER REGT BADGE AND INSIGNIA VIDEOS IN HIS YOUTUBE LISTING....

4TH & 5TH BATTALION BORDER REGIMENT....

Basically,all those 4th and 5th Battalion badges on e Bay are all copies.The originals should be concaved in detail,not flat.The originals are concaved in the mold..if you look across the edge of a genuine badge,the details should be raised..if you look across a fake,its perfectly flat!..you cant concave a repro flat badge as it is pressed into an original as part of the manufacturing process,so bending it between two fingers is a no no!!..Another giveaway on the fakes is that the small "pimples" which make up the arms of the backing star are perfectly flat ,but on the genuine badges are raised and better defined..also, maker marked rear sliders are not the sign of a genuine badge..i have seen fake 4th and 5th badges with genuine maker marked sliders attatched being offered on e bay...the sliders are genuine, but the badges are not...recently (sept 2008) on e bayuk, a bronze 4th Border cap badge was auctioned by someone..this badge was 1 piece struck bronze with cotterpin loops to the back, the front of the badge has two cut outs, one above BORDER and one above REGIMENT, it also has a distinctive dink or flaw in the left arm of the Maltese Cross as you look at the badge from the front...it sold for a high price..unfortunately as of 25 October 2008 an IDENTICAL badge was being offered by the same vendor..even down to the casting flaw!!!..sadly it looks as though someones making them as the chances of two badges being this identical are remote..so be warned.

3RD BATTALION BORDER REGIMENT...

3rd Battalion Border cap badge only has the Dragon as its centre motif..it has no motto or battle honours..this is due to the Battalions role as a special reserve unit,based its entire life at Carlisle Castle as traning and recruiting unit..training officers and men for sending overseas to other Border units in WW1..they never went anywhere,hence no honours. There is a similar badge to the Royal Cumberland Militia (which eventually became 3rd Border)..their badge is same as 3rd Border BUT with the Arroyo honour to the circlet,whereas that of the 3rd Border proper is blank as stated...the arms to the Cumberland Militia badge are also blank..another 3 rd Border badge is same  as the regular 3rd Border BUT has "3rd vol btn" to the circlet AND a scroll across the bottom arm of the maltese cross reading "South africa 1900-02"..this is still a 3rd batt badge but with these differences it was stamped for award to those 3rd batt members who volunteered for the Boer war..it was awarded to them after they came back..it is one piece diestruck and has so far only been encountered in whitemetal..no ones faking them....something to look out fo

FAKE 3rd BATTALION BORDER REGIMENT BADGE......if its 3rd Battalion and BRASS..its a COPY... genuine 3rd Border badges were NEVER brass.

.......genuine examples are either one piece whitemetal, one piece silver, one piece bronze, all with loops to the backs....and an officers 2 piece in silver plate with seperate enamel centre (this type has blades to the back)...some silver examples will have "SILVER" stamped in small letters to the rear,in the area of the arm just below the crown,some wont...some will have silver lugs,some copper.

11TH BATTALION BORDER REGIMENT......PARTICULARLY THE SILVER FAKES..A BASIC IDIOTS GUIDE, BUT UNFORTUNATELY PEOPLE ARE STILL BUYING FAKE 1914 HALLMARKED SILVER 11TH BORDER BADGES ON E BAY AT HIGH PRICES....and so it seems "rare" bronze oficers with JR Gaunt back tab.......read on..... main rule for lonsdale badges is..IT WAS NEVER ISSUED AS A BRONZE BADGE..NEVER...EVER..those bronze badges found as "rare" officers issue with JR Gaunt tab on back are post 2001 COPIES....in October 2010 a fake bronze example with 3 loop back and JR Gaunt tab sold for just over £200 on e bay uk...some people never learn..they probably thought it was a collar badge...the Lonsdale Btn wore the standard BORDER REGIMENT collars!!!!,someone is in for a disapointment!.

The 11th Lonsdale Battalion badge as a fake is done in cast alloy which is plated chrome..fairly easy to spot as they have rough reverses with a pin across the rear..not intended to fool anyone,they were made from 1990 onward as cheap gap fillers for display..i bought about 200 at a militaria fair some years ago for a quid apiece and have been selling them on E Bay UK as gap fillers...the regimental museum at Carlisle Castle in Cumbria bought a job lot from me to sell in the museum shop in about the year 2006..since the late 1990s however fakes have been seen in diecast chrome (never a feature of an original), diecast brass with lugs,and bronze..also some so called "rare" bronze officer badges have been in circulation since the with JR GAUNT tabs added to the back..these are FAKES.The lonsdale badge did issue a bronze badge but those encountered on e bay with gaunt tabs are post 2001 fakes.fake bronze examples usually have loops to the back, either two (one at 3 and one at 9 oclock..) or three loops (same as before but with a loop on the dragons wing at 12 o clock..possibly to try and pass it off as a rare collar badge). Genuine ones are only encountered in brass (not easily bendable) and silver (which should be hallmarked)....a  GENUINE SILVER BADGE,2ND TYPE should have a single loop in the middle of the dragons body and a small slider fixed at the scroll...THE GENUINE SILVER TYPE 1ST TYPE should have loops at 3 and 9 oclock positions...to date i have never seen a genuine 11th Border badge offered for sale on E Bay......there are FAKE SILVER 11th Lonsdale badges around which have been in circulation since the 1970s and have PROPER HALLMARKS TO BIRMINGHAM OR LONDON 1914,ALONG WITH  2 INITIALS WHICH VARIES...usually SG for Sebastian garrard .these fake hallmarks on the LEFT wing of the dragon, as you view the badge from the back, the badge is in cast silver and was made in the 1970s to deliberately decieve the collector,the hallmarks are difficult to read as the fake has been cast rather than die struck as an original should be,and as such has a casting flaw line which runs through the hallmarks making them difficult to read,the guy who faked the badge could not reproduce the cotterpin loops of the original so the casting replicates the appearance of clipped loops, but if you examine one of these fakes one can see it has never had loops fitted to have been removed, he therefore fitted the rear with a pin bar and commited an act of fraud by selling new badges with a 1914 hallmark...which is a criminal offence..they still turn up on e bay tho..and if i get clear enough pictures of an example i will review this particular fake as a seperate item..as it does concern me the alarming regularity this badge has started apearing on e bay.......the hallmarks on an ORIGINAL BADGE will be crisp and readable with no flaws, this is because the original silver badge is diestruck not cast and the hallmarks have been stamped by a jeweller,and not cast..on 5 August 2009 one such suspect badge (1914 hallmark silver ,lugs removed/replaced by a pin) was sitting with bids at £161 on E Bay UK.....it sold for £330 PLUS a fiver postage!!! on.26/3/12 an identical one sold for £497.50p ..on 17/1/13 yet another identical one(hallmarked for sebastian garard and 1914) sold on ebay for £475..whats the betting that more will appear on e bay in 2013???surely someone will eventually realise that there are far too many identical 1914 hallmark silver badges,all with missing mounts and all fitted with pins,being offered on e bay!!!!!!!.The wonders of E Bay never cease to amaze me.!!.I have never seen miniature lonsdale badges as collar badges..presumably the normal Border collars were worn..until a pair of MATCHING left/right facing Dragon 11th lonsdale collars turn up..we can assume they were never made.

Sometime in WW1,11th Border had a cloth shoulder title reading XI BORDER..i dont know the colour used,and to my knowledge they havent been faked.

34TH/55TH FOOT...

All the victorian numbered shako badges to the 34th..55th Cumberland/Westmorland regts which are to be seen on E Bay are all fakes..also be warned that there has been at least one example of a fake 34th Cumberland Regt officer shoulder belt plate offered on E Bay..so someones doing them an all...Be wary of any 1822 patt Bell top Shako plates to the 34th Cumberland...some were made in Canada in the early 2000s for a Canadian based re enactment unit..they also made shoulder belt plates as well..a genuine 34th bell top plate sold on e bay Uk in May 2008 for just under £700..thats the "going price".ive not seen  another offered..it may have been the one from the 2 volume kipling and king books on headdress badges..i know some rare plates pictured for the books were offered on the UK market during 2008, it may have came from there...although the advertiser didnt link it to the books.

In Carlisle a few years back a well known local jeweller contracted someone to manufacture hallmarked silver copies of not only the regular Border badge,but also those of the 11th,4th,5th Battalions also..but these have modern hallmarks on them. If in doubt about anything,drop a line to the military Collectables Group.

WESTMORLAND AND CUMBERLAND YEOMANRY.....

 

Incedentally,treat westmorland & Cumberland Yeomanry (oval 1914-1920 pattern) cap badges in the same way..allways in brass,bronze or silver...fakes are flat,genuine ones are concave,particularly in the area of the central chaffs of corn..they stand proud on a genuine badge..flat with the rest of the badge on a fake...Silver Westmoreland & Cumberland Yeomanry badges will sometimes have "SILVER" stamped on the rear,some wont,but in all cases the lugs will allways be silver...another pattern of W&CY cap badge is that issued from 1962-1968 being a circle with the regiments title around it,chaffs of corn to the centre,with a Queens Crown above. This pattern badge is allways in anodised and will allways have the Queens Crown..this circular pattern badge will also be found as a brass kings crown, bronze kings crown, brass queens crown..but more commonly found is the anodised queens crown..the original pattern badge( oval 1914-20 patt.) was dropped after WW1 when the regiment converted to an artillery role and the regiment wore Royal Artillery badges until 1962 when this pattern was issued and worn until the regiments disbandment in 1968.The back slider is usually stamped FIRMIN LONDON,and usually is in mint unissued condition,and has never been a common badge,between 2004 and 2006 the price of an example has gone from a tenner to around the twenty quid mark as the stigma of having anodised badges in a collection diminishes!!. ..an earlier example of the circular badge may be found in bronze with a Kings Crown. collar badges are same as the cap badges mentioned above..although identical to the cap badges, they are obviously collar badge size, and are not "faced"..as they are replicas in miniature of the cap badges.  the straight shoulder title reading "W & CUMB YEO" is post WW2 and when worn on the battledress has regular pattern ROYAL ARTILLERY cloth title as the top shoulder title, the div patch of 50 Northumbrian Div with the mentioned straight title above the div  patch. d uring november 2012 an alleged westmorland and cumberland horse furniture badge sold on e bay.....it was circular with "W&C" ebgraved on it,,,sadly tho without the "Y"  we suspect the item was not military but a livery horse brass from a brewery or similar,and not westmorland & Cumberland Yeomanry..the badge should have read "W&CY" or "WCY"..or with an I for when it was an Imperial unit.

BORDER REGIMENT.....("normal pattern badge usually encountered on E bay, and variants of it).......

The "normal" whitemetal border Regt cap badge as a genuine badge will allways be fitted with a slider and it will have a small brass "bar" across the rear centre..this is to hold the cloth backing in place,sometimes on a genuine badge this will be snapped off,but traces of it will be visible..the fake "normal" Border regt badge is usually found with cotterpin loops on its rear,not a feature of the original badge,however some fakes will have a slider..in all cases the fake will neither have the small rear bar or a trace of one having being there.This basic whitemetal badge is never worth a fortune,around £4-£5 being the norm..although i have seen novice collectors paying £15 for ones on E Bay..which is a rip off.

In 1916 an all brass economy version of the standard Border cap badge was issued however,any genuine examples encountered today will either be chrome plated,or if an attempt to strip the chrome back has taken place,brass with traces of chrome in the small details...any that are pure brass with no traces of chrome should be treated as suspect.also a genuine economy brass badge should have an un pierced centre..i have seen well polished examples offered on e bay but with pierced centres..they have turned out, on inspection, to have been very well polished bronze badges, but not 1916 economy brass!!

The 1916 economy brass badge was recalled after WW1 and all existing stocks were chromed  when the particular unit which wore the brass badge converted to tanks in WW2...the chroming of their brass badge brought the badge in line with the regular whitemetal issue...a cost saving exercise..it was cheaper to chrome all the brass badges than to chuck em and reissue whitemetal ones throughout the unit. The price of a chromed brass badge usually stays at the £10 mark..it rarely increases or decreases.

The standard Border badge as an officers bronze should have bronze BLADES to the reverse.....if  the same size bronze badge has LOOPS..its the officers collar badge for the service dress tunic.

To date,the standard Border cap badge has been encountered in the following variants.....Kings crown 1898-1952 ors whitemetal (the most commonly found border cap badge)...Kings Crown 1898-1952 silver plated ors whitemetal...Kings Crown 1898-1952 chrome plated bronze...Kings Crown 1898-1952 officer bronze...Kings Crown 1898-1952 officer 3 piece silver....Kings Crown 1898-1952 officer 2 piece silver...Queens Crown 1953-59 officer 2 piece silver...1953-58 Queens Crown whitemetal....Queens Crown 1953-59 officer 2 piece silver...Queens Crown 1953-59 officer 1 piece silver.....Queens Crown 1953-59 officer chrome....Queens Crown 1953-59 ors anodised.There was also a grey plastic Kings Crown version issued 1943-46.,and the aforementioned 1916 economy brass...in addition at least one example exists of a cast brass economy badge made at a Cumbrian foundry in WW1...prices?? pay NO MORE than £5 for a standard whitemetal kings crown whitemetal..one piece silver kings crowns start at £95..the rest are in between the prices stated currently (2008). During 2009 a small "Cache" of Border officer  kings crown silver badges were unearthed from somewhere..they all have flat back plates and are all maker stamped as LUDLOW LONDON..they have loops to the back.

BORDER COLLAR BADGES........

Pay extra attention to the standard Border whitemetal collar badges,particularly the battle honours to the top arm of the cross....if there are FOUR battle honours to the top arm, the collar is the post 1902 to circa 1914 issue...if THREE then its the 1914-1940 issue....if NO battle honours then its the 1st Volunteer Battalion Border...if NO battle honours BUT has an additional bottom scroll reading "2ND VOLUNTEER BATT" then this is an Edwardian Glengarry badge....for economy purposes the collar badge with no honours was re used with the mentioned scroll for the 2nd Btn glengarry badge..often overlooked on e bay as a collar badge!. The standard Border collar badge was struck in whitemetal,silver and silver plate..other ranks are one piece..officers in silver/silver plate will be multi piece..like the cap badges...no examples of the standard Border collars have been seen in brass. Those offered on E Bay in CAST plated metal are bad copies.Also in existence are the standard Border collars in ANODISED..saw my very first pair ever in february 2009, mint unissued with 1 loop to each back, cutout centre with no red cloth..it is assumed these were made as trial items which were not accepted for issue due to the Border regt becoming the KORBR and adopting new collars.

ADDITTIONAL INFO.......

The 3rd Border cap badge has so far been encountered in whitemetal...bronze ..silver..all one piece strikings, not multi piece enamel.

The 4th Battalion cap badge has so far only materialised in whitemetal.

The 5th Battalion cap badge has been found so far in whitemetal..however (i forget which) but either the 4th or 5th Border badge is also found with an extra scroll reading" WORKINGTON"..this variant is extremely scarce,and it isnt known if the badge is from a different mold or the scroll has been added to an existing badge...i know examples exist, ive only ever seen one in the metal, a long time ago.

BORDER COLLAR BADGES......

The Border Regiment collar badge issued 1888-1900 has a dragon inside a wreath,the detail around the dragons legs is cut out...and will usually be found in brass,and perhaps wire embroidered...this pattern of collar is extremely scarce with pairs none existent....the collar that predates this one is the lion only,these are extremely rare and were the first pattern collar issued to the "Border" Regt....the collar badge from 1878-1888 looks like a Royal marine collar,but with a dragon on the globe,set in a wreath.with "CHINA" above.....and will be one piece stamped brass for other ranks and 2 to 3 piece construction for officers..this pattern is also seen in wire embroidered,usually these in wire embroiderery have been removed from period bandsman tunics....pairs of these collars are very difficult to get,as one side is more frequently found than the other....a similar "Royal Marine" type collar will be found without the CHINA word..these are to 3rd Btn Border..and will always be in whitemetal,these will command a higher price than the CHINA ones,but be advised that around the early 1970s someone produced whitemetal copies of the CHINA less collars..the copies are extremely good and ironically are accepted among Border regt collectors....those in brass without "CHINA" are 4 th Btn collars..In all cases,all the various patterns of Border collars are "faced" that is to say,on a proper "pair",both the dragons should face inwards..ie,at each other..if not ..then they are not a proper "pair".A small version of the Border badge is often found with a Kings Crown or Victorian crown...seen in whitemetal and cast silver..(tho the cast silver MAY be a fake,its one piece with a solid centre)...this type,with both crowns,is universally called the 1902 pattern,its the pattern worn on the forage hat before the regular Border badge was adopted. Sometimes the blue cloth helmet plate centre is often found with the scroll reading THE BORDER REGt broken off...its often dismissed as a damaged badge..not so..when the regiment went from the blue cloth helmet to the forage hat,they simply removed the helmet plate centres off their Victorian crown back plates,removed the scrolls,and used the centre as the new forage hat badge..a way of saving money and using  an otherwise obsolete badge. The aforementioned helmet plate centre for regular Border has battle honours to all its arms..that of 1st Volunteer Btn has blank arms...2nd Vol Btn is similar to that of 1st Vol Btn,but the scroll reading THE BORDER REGT will have an additional scroll under it reading 2 ND VOLUNTEER BTN...but is fairly scarce.

To make matters complicated,the standard border regt whitemetal collars are faked complete with the small rear bar and red centrepiece,and vary from excellent diestruck (possibly ex-carlisle regimental museum stock) to very poor one piece cast metal. To my knowledge any 4th Battalion collars which turn up are genuine,no ones faking them...yet!

BORDER SHOULDER TITLES......

The upward curved T4 BORDER and T5 BORDER brass titles are easy to fake...you just add the relevant T,the number,and solder them to a bog standard upward curved WW1 to 1940 pattern BORDER brass title,believe me..its been done...however those you encounter in whitemetal will be right..similarly any Border whitemetal collar badges you find WITHOUT battle honours on the arms of the cross,are to the volunteer battalions,and will be right..there are no fakes of this collar minus the battle honours,so they are safe..for now....the standard upward curved BORDER brass titles can be found in various widths..these are just manufacturers variants...an upward curved BORDER in whitemetal is a pre 1908 3rd battalion....a straight brass BORDER is 2nd Battalion...sometimes upward curved brass BORDER turns up in a very tarnished condition leading people to believe its bronze..it isnt...just a very tarnished brass...they didnt make em in bronze. Worthy of addition to your collection is the T RFA E LANCASHIRE brass title (T with RFA below, below this an upward curved E LANCASHIRE...the E LANCASHIRE may be voided or unvoided)...why i hear you ask??..because it was worn by the Workington and Whitehaven Batteries of the Cumberland Volunteer Artillery in WW1..( not a lot of people know that)...whereas the similar T RFA CUMBERLAND brass title was only worn by the Carlisle battery...none of the shoulder title books tell you that one!!.(the T RFA CUMBERLAND title is covered in one of my other e bay guides).

BORDER BUTTONS.......

.those in brass with CHINA and dragon are not rare and were issued from WW1 till the early 1950s..some will be found in anodised. Those Dragon buttons without CHINA are/were worn only by 4th Border,4th border officers buttons will often turn up on E Bay..silver with gilt or bronze dragon. UPDATE ..apparently a few years ago the supplier "Sutlers Stores" made a batch of 34th Cumberland Regt victorian uniforms for some sort of KORBR display, possibly at Carlisle castle..each uniform was supplied with REPRO 34th buttons (34 in wreath)..so repros HAVE been made

ADDITIONAL INFO....

there is an odd badge in circulation to the 34th Cumberland Regt..its square with a blank centre..the badge is found in diecast whitemetal,brass,bronze,silver..and cast silver,they all have cotterpin loops and all share the same fault of a badly defined lion between the upper left arm of the cross.

It is thought that these badges are unfinished examples of an officers cross plate which should have an enamel "34" on the centre blank..the regimental museum in carlisle have a couple of examples,and just like mine,appear unfinished..and they are not certain to its proper use...rumor has it that the same pieces could be horse furniture of some sort.

THE ROYAL CUMBRIAN REGIMENT....

this is a ficticious non existent regiment from the book "The Four Feathers"....for the Kate Hudson movie remake the props dept made collar badges to go on replica red tunics.....the collar is described as, a star similar to an enamel Coldstream Guards star, above it are 3 feathers, below the star is a 3 section scroll reading ROYAL CUMBRIAN REGT..the badges, as they are props and not meant to be seen in detail , are cast, but finished realistically.

CUMBERLAND VOLUNTEER REGIMENT......

As a spin off to the Border regiment is the badge of the Cumberland Volunteer Regiment,raised July 1918 and disbanded in 1919. They were raised in Dalston,Carlisle,and although the actual cap badge is non Border,they wore the standard Border collars. i know of only 4 badges in existence..i have one of them...This regiment wore 1908 pattern web belts with 1 CVR stamped to the back..these are often mistakenly sold by dealers as "Cheshire volunteer regt" items...it is rumored that in the 1930s a Cumbrian man bought the regiments entire stock of  badges, frogs and stamped up 08 web belts in boxes from the old drill hall in a surplus auction,occasionally they do turn up,although we reckon the regiment numbered no more than 100 men....The cap badge to the Cumberland Volunteer regt was die struck in bronze......IT IS A RARE BADGE...no ones faking them,expect to pay what?...well,mine cost me £60 in 1998,but that was from a relative of one of the guys who was in it, straight out of the house in the village of Gosforth in Cumbria..ive never seen one offered commercially for sale,so to give an accurate price would be impossible.UPDATE THE actual badge pictured in the Kipling book was offered on e bayuk..sale expired on 20 November 2009 with no takers..its starting price was £145..this was one of the 4 badges i have ever seen and the second to have become commercially available in my 30 years as a collector(myself owning the other)....The CVR also issued sew on cloth emb.shoulder patches in the form similar to slip ons, being khaki with ,embroidered in white.. V CUMB. with the V above the upward curved CUMB...never having seen a pair available before, i paid £100 for them, were they an investment?..time will tell............

FURTHER TO THE ABOVE...TIME HAS TOLD!!!!!!......

these titles are extremely rare..i was fortunate enough to secure a pair on 8/8/08..i know of only 2 other pair in circulation, they have never been faked and a pair has never been offered for commercial sale..they also dont appear in books..they are mint, unissued and never appear to have been sewn to a uniform....it is likely they have all been cut from the same roll. UPDATE..on 11 Sept 2008 two pairs of the above V CUMB titles were offered on E Bay UK from a dealer in Wigton, Cumbria..who in turn was selling them for the guy i bought my pair from originally (apparently, as mentioned, his father bought the entire stock many years ago,and he just sat on them)..starting price was £15 each pair, both pairs sold to a WW1 collector in Merseyside for £85 and £92 respectively..so as of 12 Sept 2008, there are at least 4 pairs of these titles in collectors hands in the UK, and £100 seems to be the "going price" for a pair..time will tell if the Cumbrian collector releases any more pairs.UPDATE..on the weekend of 5 october 2008 another pair of titles surfaced at Yate militaria fair, offered by an e bay cap badge dealer .....i dont know if it was one of the pairs won by the merseyside guy in September, anyway, the dealer had no problem selling his pair...at £150..the guy who bought them was well pleased with his purchase!!. UPDATE.. during February 2009 the same Wigton dealer released 4 pairs of V CUMB titles onto e bay..starting price £50 a pair, i dont think any sold..a case of releasing too many too quickly and people assuming they are so good they must be fakes...they aint, no ones copying them

          

 

 

 

 

 
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